Building a Sports Media Empire in Vols Country with Dave Hooker
In this episode of ConnectTheKnox I’m joined by Dave Hooker, owner of Off The Hook Sports. Dave is a Knoxville native who has made a name for himself breaking stories in sports and eventually creating his own sports media empire. In this episode, we...
In this episode of ConnectTheKnox I’m joined by Dave Hooker, owner of Off The Hook Sports. Dave is a Knoxville native who has made a name for himself breaking stories in sports and eventually creating his own sports media empire. In this episode, we discuss how the world of sports journalism has changed in the face of social media and a 24/7 news cycle, and why it’s so important for up-and-coming athletes to learn how to market themselves and communicate online about their achievements. Dave gives us his predictions for the upcoming baseball season, as well as his insights on the long-term effects of growing up in the participation trophy generation.
Highlights
00:00 Intro
00:39 Dave introduces himself and explains how his Knoxville roots led him to sports broadcasting
01:46 How Off The Hook Sports got started
03:34 Dave explains what he feels are the downsides and upsides of news being reported on social media
05:26 The impact of athletes posting their own news on sports journalism
08:01 Dave and Julia discuss the importance of up-and-coming athletes knowing how to communicate and market themselves
10:11 Ad - Dr. Joe Chiro GoSeeDrJoe.com
10:43 Julia and Dave chat about helping kids understand managing their NIL
13:40 The importance of teaching young athletes financial literacy
18:51 Ad - Just Homes Group Realty Executives
19:27 Dave’s predictions for the upcoming baseball season
24:44 Julia and Dave discuss why today’s generation of young athletes is so talented but lacking a competitive edge
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Transcript
Julia: Welcome, everybody to another episode of Connect the Knox. I’m your host, Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation. Today’s guest is Dave Hooker, one of my all-time favorite sports people to follow, with Off The Hook Sports. Let me tell you if you’re not following Dave on Off The Hook Sports on Twitter, you’re missing out on so many sports updates. I mean, it’s consistent, we know exactly what’s going on. Going into baseball season, Dave’s the man. Dave, let’s start out a little bit. Tell us about yourself and how you’re connected to Knoxville.
Dave: Well, I was born and raised in Powell, so I got my PHD, my Powell High Diploma, there at Powell High School. So, that’s where I’m from. I started being around Tennessee Sports when I was 12 years old. Back then my mom would drop me off the stadium and I’d sell programs and I made 20 cents a program—and I don’t know that it was best parenting by her—and then ended up going to Tennessee. Thought that you couldn’t make a good dollar in the broadcasting business so I took two years of business school and they put me—as they politely asked me to leave for a little bit.
And so, then I said, you know, I’d rather do what I want to do. You only have one life. And when I went back, the grades were much better and fortunately, the reception to what I’ve been doing professionally since 1998, which was a good year to get started has been pretty good. So, I enjoy covering Tennessee football, I enjoy learning more about people, and I also enjoy the SEC. So, connected to Knoxville, I’m pretty connected.
Julia: I love that. I love that. Tell us about kind of your story, and how we ended up with Off The Hook Sports.
Dave: Well, a couple of different things went into that. I think that’s where the business is trending to. I think you’re seeing a lot more digital and you’re going to be seeing more and more of that in the future. You know, I have kids that are 20 and 18 and they don’t know what a radio station is. They listen to podcasts all day. And then I started talking to more people and then it was up in the mid-30s.
So, you know those are people that are going to be listeners and potential business owners for years, and I just saw that trend happening. And then really what was the final straw is when I saw a group out of Birmingham, and they did the morning show in Birmingham at WJOX, one of the biggest stations in the nation, and they decided to leave what I would argue is the best slot in college football—because Atlanta has a bigger market, but it’s not all college, it’s more pro—and they left and started their own thing called The Next Round. And when they did that, I said, “I’m going to do the same thing for Tennessee and not have to cover Nick Saban.”
Julia: Oh, [laugh] well, the tan. The tan is just… the tan is too much, man. The [tan 00:03:07] is too much.
Dave: [laugh].
Julia: So, [laugh]. That just needs to be its own hashtag: #thetanistoomuch. So, the digital presence in sports in America today, I literally get a lot of information, 90% of my information on what’s going on with sports comes out or Twitter, comes out of accounts like yours. Like, “Hey, this high school wide receiver is getting picked up by so and so,” or, “This is the conversation that’s been had.” That news comes faster through avenues like yours than it does any other possible place when it’s a slotted time or required time on radio or TV. So, you have to wait for the information. I mean, we don’t have to wait for information anymore. How’s that a positive impact, and in your opinion, how’s it also negative?
Dave: Let me start with, let me start with the—well I guess they’re both kind of negative and positive. So, when I worked for the Knoxville News Sentinel and I would break a big story, you kind of felt good and stuck your chest out for the remainder of the day. And you had a 24-hour news cycle that you’re like, “I’m the man,” you know? “I broke that and nobody else had it. How about that? Yeah, you can go on your website if you want, but everybody saw the paper this morning.”
And so, that was kind of cool. And it was that competitive type of environment that was a whole lot of fun. Nowadays, I don’t know who breaks anything and you probably don’t either. I mean because what we do at—we credit whoever breaks it, but at Off The Hook Sports we provide kind of our take on it and what it means for Tennessee. So, I guess from a negative perspective, I do miss the fact that you break something and it’s kind of like you hit the winning shot at the buzzer.
But on the flip side, you get to take more time when news breaks and you get to provide a little bit more insight, which you couldn’t do if you’re trying to get something together on people’s doorsteps the next morning. So, I guess it’s a little bit of both. Now, I will say this, just in the business in general, I think people take that a little bit too far and have these outrageous takes. We don’t go that far. But other than that, I mean, like, where the industry is going, just as long as people realize that there is sports news and there’s sports fake news, to use a political term.
Julia: [laugh]. Fake news. It’s everywhere and we really never know. And what I have started to see as a trend growing, where athletes themselves have started taking over their own news and then releasing their own news. So like, “Listen, I’m going to control my own narrative now, so I’ll let you all know when I’m ready.” How’s that impacting sports news as a whole?
Dave: A lot. A lot. So, you bring up even a better example. And really, these happen all the time. So, let’s say Tennessee had 25 commitments, which is about the number you can have in a particular football cycle. And, by golly, I wanted to break 25 of them. And I didn’t; there are a lot of good reporters that were on the beat, but you know, 12 to 15 in a lot of years, which was pretty competitive.
And ESPN would pay me—when I worked for ESPN for two years—to go to Washington, DC, and make sure I had the breaking story ready so as soon as the young man said, “Florida State,” that story was up and we already had it written because he gave me quotes beforehand. And so, you know, I think that the kids want to break their own news and I’m fine with that. You know, I think that there is an insulation between the athletes in a lot of perspective, and a lot of times that actually is a little bit harmful. I think that they need to learn to deal with media—and people—just like we all do in those ages. But if they want to throw it out there on Twitter, that’s fine. Hopefully, we’ll have a good reaction and a breakdown of what they actually mean to their chosen program. But you’re right. I mean, the days of breaking a commitment, they’re pretty much over.
Julia: Yeah, it’s been an interesting—this past whole year, so let’s get into [NIL 00:07:16], get it in there because one of the situations that I’m seeing with my kids that I sponsor at NIL and some of the people that they work around and work with, is that we’re so far behind on communication, regulation, education, I think is the biggest one we’re so far behind on is understanding how to incorporate just—because these kids need to understand how to market themselves doesn’t mean they know how; it doesn’t mean their parents know how. And nobody’s actually taking that on. So, you can be an NFL agent, you can be an MLB agent, you’ve made NBA agent, but as far as NIL goes, basically it’s a permit number just so the state of Tennessee knows who you are. And if you’re making some money on these kids’ contracts, and that’s just like, here you go. Free game.
So, these kids have no idea where they’re getting their information a lot of the time or who to go to trust and sometimes they fall back on the collectives we—we, Knoxville, Tennessee, having the largest collective, thank goodness, you know, we get to protect our kids—but where does that fall in the grand scheme of a, say, a kid out of Timbuktu, North Dakota, who wants to announce his stuff and he has absolutely no idea how to manage any of this and there’s not an agent or any NIL person out that way. How does this impact the future of communication for kids?
Dave: Well, that’s a good question. And [clear throat] I’ll tell you, first and foremost, that I am a part of NIL. I pay two players, Jacob Warren and Cooper Mays, to do regular podcast with me and I love it. And the relationships have been fantastic. We’re getting ready to re-up their contracts for another year. And for the record, I’m glad to Jacob stayed for another year.
So, as far as Tennessee, I think they’re in good shape. I think if [clear throat]—excuse me—if you’re a left guard or a backup left guard, you’re going to have some sort of opportunity and probably a little bit more money than a lot of people would think. And that’s because of the collective. Whereas there are other schools that have not gotten that in line and you had the Jaden Rashada incident where he showed up on Florida’s campus and he thought he was going to get $13 million and nothing had been worked out, so he’s like, “Peace. I’m out.”
So, I think that Tennessee is handling it the right way. Now, are some players going to get way more money than, like you say, the guy from Timbuktu who’s a three-star offensive lineman? Yeah, they are. But the thing that I’ve found through players, that Jacob and Cooper, is I asked them about that—because the first person I reached out to because of my last name is standing, was Hendon Hooker. I quickly realized I could not afford Hendon Hooker.
So, [laugh] I went and I asked UT, I said, “I want three things. I want a guy who’s a good talker, a guy that starts, and he’s not going to get arrested.” And so, they helped me with that and that’s worked out with Cooper and Jacob. So, they’re all getting a piece of the pie. But those players I talked to specifically about that early on in our NIL agreement, I said, “How does this all work out? When you’ve got Hendon Hooker—or whoever the quarterback might be—making more money?” And says, “Well, that’s the quarterback.” Says, “It’s the same thing in high school. He’s the guy that everybody loves, he’s the guy that probably has more dates, and just across the board, he’s the quarterback. That’s life.”
And I haven’t spoken to one player who thought that was an issue. And again, if you come to Tennessee—I’m not promoting Tennessee, there are other schools that have this as well, but if you come to Tennessee, you’re going to get some piece of the pie. If you go to if you go to other schools, there’s the chance you could be left out of the loop and that’s no fun. I think that’s when the resentment starts.
Julia: Yeah, I think Tennessee has got a good handle on it and I think the kids themselves being able to have non-compete NIL contracts, I mean, even our largest collective here is like, “Hey, if you find a great deal for yourself, we don’t want to ever tell you you can’t make money.” And I have found that very rare collectives across the country have that ability to say we don’t do non-competes, they all want exclusivity with their students. And it’s like, you’re limiting their potential. I mean, they may not be able to do what you want them to do. So, I think that instills the loyalty.
But catching those kids in high schools is where it is. Catching the kids when they need to communicate they are announcement. Because that can affect their NIL money. I mean, you can be a third-star—or three-star whatever, or four-star whatever and still have the correct digital marketing footprint to make yourself popular and wanted at signing events or, you know, whatever it is for businesses. So, as long as you’re marketable.
So, where do we catch these kids and have these conversations that early? Is it just relationships with recruiters? Relationships with collectives ahead of time that have recruiters? Is it per campus? I mean, how do you catch these kids early enough to say, “I can help you digitally market yourself so you’re worth more to the collective and to yourself later on in business?”
Dave: I think the media has naturally done that for a lot of years, especially with Twitter more so than Facebook. So, I think, you know, oftentimes, when we write about a young man, we include him, so he’s going to get naturally more followers, just in droves, especially if he’s a four or five-star guy. So, I think the media has promoted these guys and will continue to do so and that’s to their benefit, which I think is good financially. Now, as far as recruiters being involved, technically, you’re kind of living in what you can do with that, but let’s be honest, if you’re at a Power Five school, are you telling me that the head coach doesn’t have the number of the local collective and say, “Hey, this guy is pretty good. Maybe we should look into him.” I mean, come on. I mean, that’s got to happen.
And I think it probably is warranted and apt and that it does happen. But yeah, I mean, I think that we’re just in a brave new world, and the NCAA they have to blame themselves, you know? They got sued by—they got sued by Ed O’Bannon because of using likenesses in video games 20 years ago, and they didn’t do anything about it to give players a piece of the pie. So, the NCAA is not happy about it. I’ve talked to SEC Commissioner Greg Sankey; he’s not happy about that it’s being used in recruiting, but the bottom line is, that’s the law. That’s not a SEC rule. That’s the law. They’re 18-year-old men. They can make money on their own—or women as particularly the case with the LSU gymnasts—but yeah, I mean, that’s just kind of where they are and the NCAA has nobody to blame but themselves.
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Julia: I think one of the conversations that I have a lot with my kids is on the back end of that. So, what I do when I work with kids, and I’ve probably got, God, [unintelligible 00:14:30] 15 now, 15 kids that I work with at this point, and what I do on the back end of that is let’s review your contract, let’s talk about how much money you’re making, let’s do something with that. Like let’s start you at S corp or an LLC. We don’t need to buy a new truck for $45,000 or have off-campus housing in the most expensive apartment complex in downtown Knoxville. What are we going to do with this money?
And teaching them how to use that properly has been one of my biggest give in that whole scenario. It’s, I get the phone calls of, “Hey, well, so-and-so got a Mercedes. I want a bigger car.” “Awesome sauce. Do you also want to house one day?” Like, what are we talking about as far as long-term goals?
And kind of setting those conversations ahead of time has is really not been a focus yet because I don’t feel like the NCAA has got a grasp on even what’s going on as a whole. And you’re right, they’ve had 20 years to catch up and still can’t do it. So, you’ve got past players trying to step in and help, the collectives are competing for attention with each other for the students, and the students are kind of out here and we use the word segregated because they are; they’re in a bubble. You got to check in three days—three times a day, seven days a week, and requirements on two days after spring. Where are you going to get that knowledge base and that protection level, outside of just being on your football field, going back to your campus dorm, studying for your classes, you have no way whatsoever to be socialized in the business world. This is your first piece of true business is marketing yourself and no one’s really teaching you anything about it after the fact. Where do we see that maybe, somebody stepping in on behalf of the kids at some point?
Dave: Well, I think you and I would agree that you can depend on the NCAA to do that, right?
Julia: [laugh]. That’s the truth.
Dave: So, I mean, that’s not going to happen. It’s interesting you bring up that topic. So, I was made aware of a team meeting yesterday at Tennessee’s football team, so I just was curious what it’s about if it’s a hastily called meeting, you know, maybe it’s something. And somebody sent me a picture, and it was of a big screen, a presentation screen in front of the whole team. And it was, “NIO and taxes.”
So, that’s something that I bet a lot of the kids haven’t thought about and that’s something that maybe people at Tennessee hadn’t thought about, but they’re starting to get their 1099s and they’re going to have to file their taxes. And, you know, we sent out our tax paperwork to our guys, Jacob and Cooper, and all that we employ at Off The Hook Sports. But if you’re in a smaller school, you know—and say—I’m just picking Bowling Green out of nowhere, but say at Bowling Green, and you pick up an NIL deal and you make grand a month. Do you know to claim your taxes? Is that guy just giving it to you in cash? Is there any record of that?
So, much like a lot of professional players get to the pros and they don’t spend their money wisely, you’re going to see that at the younger level. And I think that’s why you’re going to continue to have the haves and the have-nots. And that disparity is going to grow even bigger because big schools like Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, they’re going to make sure their players are educated in that, but I wonder about other schools that are just borderline Power Five schools. Those guys could be in a pickle when the taxman comes calling.
Julia: Well, I think the long-term ramification of it is athletic directors, while their main job, obviously, is to just do what they need to do for their university position, right, they don’t necessarily get involved in this section of it, but if we don’t come to some kind of an agreement with making that part of it, that what’s going to happen is that these kids—on any sport—their focus is going to be on worrying about paying the taxes, like an actual adult would have to every single day, except their job is to actually go and play their sport. That’s their actual job. They get a scholarship, they get NIL money, but the reason they are there is to play that sport, play it well, and win because the universities make money on those winning teams. And if they’re too stressed out about having to pay their taxes or manage their finances, they may not be able to play as well as they think they need to play. And that is a trickle-down issue that if we don’t start worrying about today and offering opportunities for better education on that today, that can actually affect our sports teams later on. Stress is real and it impacts people in different ways.
Dave: No, I completely agree. And one of the players I covered incredibly close and got to know his family was Jonathan Crompton, who I’m sure you remember. And Jonathan, through coaching changes, his career wasn’t what he had hoped it would be, but ended up salvaging it at the last half of his senior year and now is beloved by Tennessee fans. But that wasn’t the case for a long time because of outside circumstances. So, what happens, he was highly rated as a recruit is the reason people got so upset when he didn’t play well early in his career.
But what happens if he’s also getting $8 million, like a certain guy named Nico? I mean at what point does that pressure begin to intensify, does the corporate pressure say, “Hey, we’re paying this guy $8 million; he needs to be the starter.” So, there are all kinds of weird things that could go on with it. And I think it’s going to evolve and I don’t think we know what it’s going to be in three to five years.
Julia: So, let’s switch topics. Baseball season is coming up, actually, like, in a week. I’m super excited about it. What are the predictions?
Dave: Well, Tony Vitello is going to keep being better-looking than me.
Julia: [laugh].
Dave: I will g—that is a bonafide, going-to-happen prediction.
Julia: I think every man in Knoxville when Tony Vitello—because Tony has been here five years, right? Five or s—
Dave: Yeah.
Julia: So, I think when Tony V started becoming, like, this icon of male superiority, of good looks, every man in Knoxville started wearing a baseball cap, growing their hair out a little longer, had the beard going. It was like, okay, okay. This is a lot [laugh].
Dave: I actually, I just shaved the beard three days ago. I tried that. It didn’t work. It was white unlike his. So yes, he is kind of like Magnum PI with an athletic side. So, I think that as far as Tennessee’s baseball team, I think the pitching is going to be really good to keep them one of the elite programs in the nation. Is the hitting going to be as good? Probably not. But I also think this team might benefit from flying under the radar a little bit.
I mean, let’s face it, last year, there was all kinds of things going on with the, you know, the celebrations, the one-finger salute run around second base. And I think that they might want to come into the season just fly a little bit more under the radar. But man, last year was such a cool year, if you were to, you know, pick a year to write a book about, that would certainly be one. But it just didn’t in the right way. So, I think you’d probably learned from that. But I think their pitching is going to be really good and they’ll be one of the better teams in the nation, for sure.
Julia: What’s going on with Rick Barnes? Twitter—Vols Twitter, boy, they’re on the attack. So, I’ll tell you, I have told people, I will tell people this every time I relocate a business—which, you know, in the last few years have been a ton of people relocating to Knoxville—if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. And they go. “Isn’t that New York?” And say, “No, honey. No.” New York is a place where people go and expect the competition. They expect that kind of pushback, so they’re armored and ready to go. It’s all kinds of different people in this melting pot of competitiveness.
You come to Knoxville, and it’s like, “Hey darlin’, how are you? Hope you’re having a great day.” Pitchforks out two days later because you didn’t do something. And it catches people off guard. They’re not ready for Vol Twitter. And I warn them, when you come here, be ready. Be ready to win. Because if you can’t win consistently, Vols Twitter’s coming for you. And they’re coming for Rick Barnes. What’s going on?
Dave: Yeah, and Kelly Harper, as well. So, I—um… yeah, I think Greg Barnes… I want to say this with all due respect to his career because it’s been fantastic, but just one final four of parents and, you know, didn’t—[sigh] I look at—wasn’t willing to ever adjust in his career. So, it’s a really defensive style of basketball. And it’s not up and down, right, that’s been successful. And I think that’s always going to hurt you in the tournament because if you hit a hot shooting team, it’s one and you’re done. It’s not like a seven-game series in the NBA.
So, I think that always hurts him. Still a Hall of Fame career, so I don’t want to sound like I’m knocking him in any shape, form, or fashion. But with this particular basketball team this year, I mean, they’re not even hitting the outside shots when they get them. So, they run an inside-outside game with no outside. Because right now, I don’t think there’s any fear that they can convert consistently from the post, so what happens is those defenders that might crash down on the inside, man, they’re staying outside on the perimeter and Tennessee hasn’t been able to hit shots.
Can they overcome that? You know, if I was a betting man, I’d say that it’s Sweet 16 at best. But if they’re able to overcome that, I think they have the talent at the guard position. They just haven’t played like it to this point. But you know, it’s not the style that wins nowadays in college basketball and that pains me to see because I would love to see Rick Barnes win a championship after the career he’s had, but I just don’t know that it’s going to happen.
Julia: So, we hardly ever go to the games ourselves. Like I said, we give our stuff to the kids. So, other than football, we give our tickets to the kids as much as possible—so obviously, they’re the football kids, so we can’t give them tickets to their own game—but [laugh] we hardly go. But we did go a couple of weekends ago and we left at halftime and I was like, “This is ano—this is the least aggressive basketball game I’ve ever seen UT play.”
Dave: Which game was that? Which game did you go to?
Julia: God, what was that? Missouri.
Dave: Missouri. Yeah. And then, you know, the Auburn game was a win over a ranked team and Bruce Pearl and all that, but that was ugly, too. And, yeah, I just… they’ve had injuries along the way, which maybe makes it hard to find chemistry. I just don’t see a lot of the fire in this group and it reminds me a little bit of some of Jerry Green’s group, not to date myself.
But if you go back to Jerry [laugh] Green’s group, I mean, they had a ton of talent. A ton of talent. And I remember the ongoing joke was, we’re going to have this come to Jesus or players-only meeting. And they had, like, eight in a season. So, nothing changed after those meetings.
So, I feel like they’ve got a little bit of that going on that maybe they think they’re better than they are and they don’t have to be at their best every night. But the simple fact is, they do. And yeah, that can change. You know, we’re having this conversation in mid-March. We could be having a different conversation where they’re elite eight in final four. But right now, um, I’m not so sure.
Julia: I agree. And kind of some of the situation that we’re also seeing with the Lady Vols. Same conversation. And this is something I equated it to which I find very interesting, I had this conversation with a couple of other people, this is the generation that we see the result of participation trophies. So, we’re seeing the most talented generation sports-wise I’ve ever seen—talent, abundant amount of talent—every kid that’s coming out of high school, going into college, maybe junior, senior year in college, all of them are so unbelievably talented. It’s almost like NFL quality.
At what—what is it? A point one-tenth of a run difference between you and the guy next to you? Talent. Real talent at such a young age, but you didn’t have that competitive aggression to go with it. This is the result of that raising of kids without that competitive, you have to be a—somebody has to win. Somebody’s got to have the attitude to want to win. That aggression has got to be there. Just don’t feel like very many teams, even UT, are aggressive right now. It’s gone.
Dave: I think that’s a societal issue as well. I mean, I was watching, I think it was a sociology professor talking about how, you know, if you are aggressive and if you work hard and you do things like follow-ups and stuff like that that we were talking about before the podcast, just simple little stuff that was just, you know, when I was younger, man, that was common knowledge, if you didn’t do that, you weren’t going to have the respect of your peers. If you do that, nowadays, just the basics, you’re probably going to slay in whatever field you go after because a lot of people aren’t. So, I think there’s some of that in sports, too. And I think that the Lady Vols have a little bit of that going on with their group.
But you know, that if you flip it to football, it’s the exact opposite. I mean, that team believeD from last January, that they were going to be special. And I got little hints from Cooper and Jacob and other players at press conferences that they were going to be better than expected. And I said, “Eh, yeah, whatever.” You know? There a seven-, eight-win team. And they turned out and they win eleven and beat Alabama.
So, those were guys that went out there and just absolutely slayed with their mindset, starting in January. Not in August in pre-season camp, but in last January. And if they’re doing the same this year, then the talent level should be better and we’ll see what will happen. But yeah, I mean, to the young kids out there watching or middle-aged people, whoever may be, if you just go out there and work hard and do what you’re supposed to do, you’re going to do well.
Julia: I agree. And we’re going to end it right there because that’s the perfect ending. Go do what you’re supposed to do, but do it with aggression and do it well. So, tell us and all of our fans here at Connect the Knox, how we can find you, how we can follow you, and all of your links.
Dave: Just go to offthehooksports.com is probably the easiest way, and all of our links are there. So, our niche is, we don’t charge any subscription fee, but we’re free. We’re advertising-based and I think that’s the way things are going in this market.
And I also would encourage people to check out the YouTube channel. You can subscribe there just so that you get notice of our latest videos. But that’s free as well. So yeah, and you can go to Twitter at @TheDaveHooker, or you can go to Twitter at OTH—which is Off The Hook—Sports Media @OTHSportsMedia. So, that’s where we are.
Julia: Awesome. Thank you so much for connecting the Knox with us today. Everybody, this was David Hooker, owner of Off The Hook Sports and he’s [moving back to Knoxville soon 00:29:01]. [unintelligible 00:29:03] lookout for him at your press conferences. Thank you so very much for visiting Connect the Knox.
Thank you for tuning into the show. Make sure to like and subscribe, leave a five-star review on your podcast player of choice. And if you would like information on moving to Knoxville, send me a private message. As always, this is Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation.
Julia: Welcome, everybody to another episode of Connect the Knox. I’m your host, Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation. Today’s guest is Dave Hooker, one of my all-time favorite sports people to follow, with Off The Hook Sports. Let me tell you if you’re not following Dave on Off The Hook Sports on Twitter, you’re missing out on so many sports updates. I mean, it’s consistent, we know exactly what’s going on. Going into baseball season, Dave’s the man. Dave, let’s start out a little bit. Tell us about yourself and how you’re connected to Knoxville.
Dave: Well, I was born and raised in Powell, so I got my PHD, my Powell High Diploma, there at Powell High School. So, that’s where I’m from. I started being around Tennessee Sports when I was 12 years old. Back then my mom would drop me off the stadium and I’d sell programs and I made 20 cents a program—and I don’t know that it was best parenting by her—and then ended up going to Tennessee. Thought that you couldn’t make a good dollar in the broadcasting business so I took two years of business school and they put me—as they politely asked me to leave for a little bit.
And so, then I said, you know, I’d rather do what I want to do. You only have one life. And when I went back, the grades were much better and fortunately, the reception to what I’ve been doing professionally since 1998, which was a good year to get started has been pretty good. So, I enjoy covering Tennessee football, I enjoy learning more about people, and I also enjoy the SEC. So, connected to Knoxville, I’m pretty connected.
Julia: I love that. I love that. Tell us about kind of your story, and how we ended up with Off The Hook Sports.
Dave: Well, a couple of different things went into that. I think that’s where the business is trending to. I think you’re seeing a lot more digital and you’re going to be seeing more and more of that in the future. You know, I have kids that are 20 and 18 and they don’t know what a radio station is. They listen to podcasts all day. And then I started talking to more people and then it was up in the mid-30s.
So, you know those are people that are going to be listeners and potential business owners for years, and I just saw that trend happening. And then really what was the final straw is when I saw a group out of Birmingham, and they did the morning show in Birmingham at WJOX, one of the biggest stations in the nation, and they decided to leave what I would argue is the best slot in college football—because Atlanta has a bigger market, but it’s not all college, it’s more pro—and they left and started their own thing called The Next Round. And when they did that, I said, “I’m going to do the same thing for Tennessee and not have to cover Nick Saban.”
Julia: Oh, [laugh] well, the tan. The tan is just… the tan is too much, man. The [tan 00:03:07] is too much.
Dave: [laugh].
Julia: So, [laugh]. That just needs to be its own hashtag: #thetanistoomuch. So, the digital presence in sports in America today, I literally get a lot of information, 90% of my information on what’s going on with sports comes out or Twitter, comes out of accounts like yours. Like, “Hey, this high school wide receiver is getting picked up by so and so,” or, “This is the conversation that’s been had.” That news comes faster through avenues like yours than it does any other possible place when it’s a slotted time or required time on radio or TV. So, you have to wait for the information. I mean, we don’t have to wait for information anymore. How’s that a positive impact, and in your opinion, how’s it also negative?
Dave: Let me start with, let me start with the—well I guess they’re both kind of negative and positive. So, when I worked for the Knoxville News Sentinel and I would break a big story, you kind of felt good and stuck your chest out for the remainder of the day. And you had a 24-hour news cycle that you’re like, “I’m the man,” you know? “I broke that and nobody else had it. How about that? Yeah, you can go on your website if you want, but everybody saw the paper this morning.”
And so, that was kind of cool. And it was that competitive type of environment that was a whole lot of fun. Nowadays, I don’t know who breaks anything and you probably don’t either. I mean because what we do at—we credit whoever breaks it, but at Off The Hook Sports we provide kind of our take on it and what it means for Tennessee. So, I guess from a negative perspective, I do miss the fact that you break something and it’s kind of like you hit the winning shot at the buzzer.
But on the flip side, you get to take more time when news breaks and you get to provide a little bit more insight, which you couldn’t do if you’re trying to get something together on people’s doorsteps the next morning. So, I guess it’s a little bit of both. Now, I will say this, just in the business in general, I think people take that a little bit too far and have these outrageous takes. We don’t go that far. But other than that, I mean, like, where the industry is going, just as long as people realize that there is sports news and there’s sports fake news, to use a political term.
Julia: [laugh]. Fake news. It’s everywhere and we really never know. And what I have started to see as a trend growing, where athletes themselves have started taking over their own news and then releasing their own news. So like, “Listen, I’m going to control my own narrative now, so I’ll let you all know when I’m ready.” How’s that impacting sports news as a whole?
Dave: A lot. A lot. So, you bring up even a better example. And really, these happen all the time. So, let’s say Tennessee had 25 commitments, which is about the number you can have in a particular football cycle. And, by golly, I wanted to break 25 of them. And I didn’t; there are a lot of good reporters that were on the beat, but you know, 12 to 15 in a lot of years, which was pretty competitive.
And ESPN would pay me—when I worked for ESPN for two years—to go to Washington, DC, and make sure I had the breaking story ready so as soon as the young man said, “Florida State,” that story was up and we already had it written because he gave me quotes beforehand. And so, you know, I think that the kids want to break their own news and I’m fine with that. You know, I think that there is an insulation between the athletes in a lot of perspective, and a lot of times that actually is a little bit harmful. I think that they need to learn to deal with media—and people—just like we all do in those ages. But if they want to throw it out there on Twitter, that’s fine. Hopefully, we’ll have a good reaction and a breakdown of what they actually mean to their chosen program. But you’re right. I mean, the days of breaking a commitment, they’re pretty much over.
Julia: Yeah, it’s been an interesting—this past whole year, so let’s get into [NIL 00:07:16], get it in there because one of the situations that I’m seeing with my kids that I sponsor at NIL and some of the people that they work around and work with, is that we’re so far behind on communication, regulation, education, I think is the biggest one we’re so far behind on is understanding how to incorporate just—because these kids need to understand how to market themselves doesn’t mean they know how; it doesn’t mean their parents know how. And nobody’s actually taking that on. So, you can be an NFL agent, you can be an MLB agent, you’ve made NBA agent, but as far as NIL goes, basically it’s a permit number just so the state of Tennessee knows who you are. And if you’re making some money on these kids’ contracts, and that’s just like, here you go. Free game.
So, these kids have no idea where they’re getting their information a lot of the time or who to go to trust and sometimes they fall back on the collectives we—we, Knoxville, Tennessee, having the largest collective, thank goodness, you know, we get to protect our kids—but where does that fall in the grand scheme of a, say, a kid out of Timbuktu, North Dakota, who wants to announce his stuff and he has absolutely no idea how to manage any of this and there’s not an agent or any NIL person out that way. How does this impact the future of communication for kids?
Dave: Well, that’s a good question. And [clear throat] I’ll tell you, first and foremost, that I am a part of NIL. I pay two players, Jacob Warren and Cooper Mays, to do regular podcast with me and I love it. And the relationships have been fantastic. We’re getting ready to re-up their contracts for another year. And for the record, I’m glad to Jacob stayed for another year.
So, as far as Tennessee, I think they’re in good shape. I think if [clear throat]—excuse me—if you’re a left guard or a backup left guard, you’re going to have some sort of opportunity and probably a little bit more money than a lot of people would think. And that’s because of the collective. Whereas there are other schools that have not gotten that in line and you had the Jaden Rashada incident where he showed up on Florida’s campus and he thought he was going to get $13 million and nothing had been worked out, so he’s like, “Peace. I’m out.”
So, I think that Tennessee is handling it the right way. Now, are some players going to get way more money than, like you say, the guy from Timbuktu who’s a three-star offensive lineman? Yeah, they are. But the thing that I’ve found through players, that Jacob and Cooper, is I asked them about that—because the first person I reached out to because of my last name is standing, was Hendon Hooker. I quickly realized I could not afford Hendon Hooker.
So, [laugh] I went and I asked UT, I said, “I want three things. I want a guy who’s a good talker, a guy that starts, and he’s not going to get arrested.” And so, they helped me with that and that’s worked out with Cooper and Jacob. So, they’re all getting a piece of the pie. But those players I talked to specifically about that early on in our NIL agreement, I said, “How does this all work out? When you’ve got Hendon Hooker—or whoever the quarterback might be—making more money?” And says, “Well, that’s the quarterback.” Says, “It’s the same thing in high school. He’s the guy that everybody loves, he’s the guy that probably has more dates, and just across the board, he’s the quarterback. That’s life.”
And I haven’t spoken to one player who thought that was an issue. And again, if you come to Tennessee—I’m not promoting Tennessee, there are other schools that have this as well, but if you come to Tennessee, you’re going to get some piece of the pie. If you go to if you go to other schools, there’s the chance you could be left out of the loop and that’s no fun. I think that’s when the resentment starts.
Julia: Yeah, I think Tennessee has got a good handle on it and I think the kids themselves being able to have non-compete NIL contracts, I mean, even our largest collective here is like, “Hey, if you find a great deal for yourself, we don’t want to ever tell you you can’t make money.” And I have found that very rare collectives across the country have that ability to say we don’t do non-competes, they all want exclusivity with their students. And it’s like, you’re limiting their potential. I mean, they may not be able to do what you want them to do. So, I think that instills the loyalty.
But catching those kids in high schools is where it is. Catching the kids when they need to communicate they are announcement. Because that can affect their NIL money. I mean, you can be a third-star—or three-star whatever, or four-star whatever and still have the correct digital marketing footprint to make yourself popular and wanted at signing events or, you know, whatever it is for businesses. So, as long as you’re marketable.
So, where do we catch these kids and have these conversations that early? Is it just relationships with recruiters? Relationships with collectives ahead of time that have recruiters? Is it per campus? I mean, how do you catch these kids early enough to say, “I can help you digitally market yourself so you’re worth more to the collective and to yourself later on in business?”
Dave: I think the media has naturally done that for a lot of years, especially with Twitter more so than Facebook. So, I think, you know, oftentimes, when we write about a young man, we include him, so he’s going to get naturally more followers, just in droves, especially if he’s a four or five-star guy. So, I think the media has promoted these guys and will continue to do so and that’s to their benefit, which I think is good financially. Now, as far as recruiters being involved, technically, you’re kind of living in what you can do with that, but let’s be honest, if you’re at a Power Five school, are you telling me that the head coach doesn’t have the number of the local collective and say, “Hey, this guy is pretty good. Maybe we should look into him.” I mean, come on. I mean, that’s got to happen.
And I think it probably is warranted and apt and that it does happen. But yeah, I mean, I think that we’re just in a brave new world, and the NCAA they have to blame themselves, you know? They got sued by—they got sued by Ed O’Bannon because of using likenesses in video games 20 years ago, and they didn’t do anything about it to give players a piece of the pie. So, the NCAA is not happy about it. I’ve talked to SEC Commissioner Greg Sankey; he’s not happy about that it’s being used in recruiting, but the bottom line is, that’s the law. That’s not a SEC rule. That’s the law. They’re 18-year-old men. They can make money on their own—or women as particularly the case with the LSU gymnasts—but yeah, I mean, that’s just kind of where they are and the NCAA has nobody to blame but themselves.
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Julia: I think one of the conversations that I have a lot with my kids is on the back end of that. So, what I do when I work with kids, and I’ve probably got, God, [unintelligible 00:14:30] 15 now, 15 kids that I work with at this point, and what I do on the back end of that is let’s review your contract, let’s talk about how much money you’re making, let’s do something with that. Like let’s start you at S corp or an LLC. We don’t need to buy a new truck for $45,000 or have off-campus housing in the most expensive apartment complex in downtown Knoxville. What are we going to do with this money?
And teaching them how to use that properly has been one of my biggest give in that whole scenario. It’s, I get the phone calls of, “Hey, well, so-and-so got a Mercedes. I want a bigger car.” “Awesome sauce. Do you also want to house one day?” Like, what are we talking about as far as long-term goals?
And kind of setting those conversations ahead of time has is really not been a focus yet because I don’t feel like the NCAA has got a grasp on even what’s going on as a whole. And you’re right, they’ve had 20 years to catch up and still can’t do it. So, you’ve got past players trying to step in and help, the collectives are competing for attention with each other for the students, and the students are kind of out here and we use the word segregated because they are; they’re in a bubble. You got to check in three days—three times a day, seven days a week, and requirements on two days after spring. Where are you going to get that knowledge base and that protection level, outside of just being on your football field, going back to your campus dorm, studying for your classes, you have no way whatsoever to be socialized in the business world. This is your first piece of true business is marketing yourself and no one’s really teaching you anything about it after the fact. Where do we see that maybe, somebody stepping in on behalf of the kids at some point?
Dave: Well, I think you and I would agree that you can depend on the NCAA to do that, right?
Julia: [laugh]. That’s the truth.
Dave: So, I mean, that’s not going to happen. It’s interesting you bring up that topic. So, I was made aware of a team meeting yesterday at Tennessee’s football team, so I just was curious what it’s about if it’s a hastily called meeting, you know, maybe it’s something. And somebody sent me a picture, and it was of a big screen, a presentation screen in front of the whole team. And it was, “NIO and taxes.”
So, that’s something that I bet a lot of the kids haven’t thought about and that’s something that maybe people at Tennessee hadn’t thought about, but they’re starting to get their 1099s and they’re going to have to file their taxes. And, you know, we sent out our tax paperwork to our guys, Jacob and Cooper, and all that we employ at Off The Hook Sports. But if you’re in a smaller school, you know—and say—I’m just picking Bowling Green out of nowhere, but say at Bowling Green, and you pick up an NIL deal and you make grand a month. Do you know to claim your taxes? Is that guy just giving it to you in cash? Is there any record of that?
So, much like a lot of professional players get to the pros and they don’t spend their money wisely, you’re going to see that at the younger level. And I think that’s why you’re going to continue to have the haves and the have-nots. And that disparity is going to grow even bigger because big schools like Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, they’re going to make sure their players are educated in that, but I wonder about other schools that are just borderline Power Five schools. Those guys could be in a pickle when the taxman comes calling.
Julia: Well, I think the long-term ramification of it is athletic directors, while their main job, obviously, is to just do what they need to do for their university position, right, they don’t necessarily get involved in this section of it, but if we don’t come to some kind of an agreement with making that part of it, that what’s going to happen is that these kids—on any sport—their focus is going to be on worrying about paying the taxes, like an actual adult would have to every single day, except their job is to actually go and play their sport. That’s their actual job. They get a scholarship, they get NIL money, but the reason they are there is to play that sport, play it well, and win because the universities make money on those winning teams. And if they’re too stressed out about having to pay their taxes or manage their finances, they may not be able to play as well as they think they need to play. And that is a trickle-down issue that if we don’t start worrying about today and offering opportunities for better education on that today, that can actually affect our sports teams later on. Stress is real and it impacts people in different ways.
Dave: No, I completely agree. And one of the players I covered incredibly close and got to know his family was Jonathan Crompton, who I’m sure you remember. And Jonathan, through coaching changes, his career wasn’t what he had hoped it would be, but ended up salvaging it at the last half of his senior year and now is beloved by Tennessee fans. But that wasn’t the case for a long time because of outside circumstances. So, what happens, he was highly rated as a recruit is the reason people got so upset when he didn’t play well early in his career.
But what happens if he’s also getting $8 million, like a certain guy named Nico? I mean at what point does that pressure begin to intensify, does the corporate pressure say, “Hey, we’re paying this guy $8 million; he needs to be the starter.” So, there are all kinds of weird things that could go on with it. And I think it’s going to evolve and I don’t think we know what it’s going to be in three to five years.
Julia: So, let’s switch topics. Baseball season is coming up, actually, like, in a week. I’m super excited about it. What are the predictions?
Dave: Well, Tony Vitello is going to keep being better-looking than me.
Julia: [laugh].
Dave: I will g—that is a bonafide, going-to-happen prediction.
Julia: I think every man in Knoxville when Tony Vitello—because Tony has been here five years, right? Five or s—
Dave: Yeah.
Julia: So, I think when Tony V started becoming, like, this icon of male superiority, of good looks, every man in Knoxville started wearing a baseball cap, growing their hair out a little longer, had the beard going. It was like, okay, okay. This is a lot [laugh].
Dave: I actually, I just shaved the beard three days ago. I tried that. It didn’t work. It was white unlike his. So yes, he is kind of like Magnum PI with an athletic side. So, I think that as far as Tennessee’s baseball team, I think the pitching is going to be really good to keep them one of the elite programs in the nation. Is the hitting going to be as good? Probably not. But I also think this team might benefit from flying under the radar a little bit.
I mean, let’s face it, last year, there was all kinds of things going on with the, you know, the celebrations, the one-finger salute run around second base. And I think that they might want to come into the season just fly a little bit more under the radar. But man, last year was such a cool year, if you were to, you know, pick a year to write a book about, that would certainly be one. But it just didn’t in the right way. So, I think you’d probably learned from that. But I think their pitching is going to be really good and they’ll be one of the better teams in the nation, for sure.
Julia: What’s going on with Rick Barnes? Twitter—Vols Twitter, boy, they’re on the attack. So, I’ll tell you, I have told people, I will tell people this every time I relocate a business—which, you know, in the last few years have been a ton of people relocating to Knoxville—if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. And they go. “Isn’t that New York?” And say, “No, honey. No.” New York is a place where people go and expect the competition. They expect that kind of pushback, so they’re armored and ready to go. It’s all kinds of different people in this melting pot of competitiveness.
You come to Knoxville, and it’s like, “Hey darlin’, how are you? Hope you’re having a great day.” Pitchforks out two days later because you didn’t do something. And it catches people off guard. They’re not ready for Vol Twitter. And I warn them, when you come here, be ready. Be ready to win. Because if you can’t win consistently, Vols Twitter’s coming for you. And they’re coming for Rick Barnes. What’s going on?
Dave: Yeah, and Kelly Harper, as well. So, I—um… yeah, I think Greg Barnes… I want to say this with all due respect to his career because it’s been fantastic, but just one final four of parents and, you know, didn’t—[sigh] I look at—wasn’t willing to ever adjust in his career. So, it’s a really defensive style of basketball. And it’s not up and down, right, that’s been successful. And I think that’s always going to hurt you in the tournament because if you hit a hot shooting team, it’s one and you’re done. It’s not like a seven-game series in the NBA.
So, I think that always hurts him. Still a Hall of Fame career, so I don’t want to sound like I’m knocking him in any shape, form, or fashion. But with this particular basketball team this year, I mean, they’re not even hitting the outside shots when they get them. So, they run an inside-outside game with no outside. Because right now, I don’t think there’s any fear that they can convert consistently from the post, so what happens is those defenders that might crash down on the inside, man, they’re staying outside on the perimeter and Tennessee hasn’t been able to hit shots.
Can they overcome that? You know, if I was a betting man, I’d say that it’s Sweet 16 at best. But if they’re able to overcome that, I think they have the talent at the guard position. They just haven’t played like it to this point. But you know, it’s not the style that wins nowadays in college basketball and that pains me to see because I would love to see Rick Barnes win a championship after the career he’s had, but I just don’t know that it’s going to happen.
Julia: So, we hardly ever go to the games ourselves. Like I said, we give our stuff to the kids. So, other than football, we give our tickets to the kids as much as possible—so obviously, they’re the football kids, so we can’t give them tickets to their own game—but [laugh] we hardly go. But we did go a couple of weekends ago and we left at halftime and I was like, “This is ano—this is the least aggressive basketball game I’ve ever seen UT play.”
Dave: Which game was that? Which game did you go to?
Julia: God, what was that? Missouri.
Dave: Missouri. Yeah. And then, you know, the Auburn game was a win over a ranked team and Bruce Pearl and all that, but that was ugly, too. And, yeah, I just… they’ve had injuries along the way, which maybe makes it hard to find chemistry. I just don’t see a lot of the fire in this group and it reminds me a little bit of some of Jerry Green’s group, not to date myself.
But if you go back to Jerry [laugh] Green’s group, I mean, they had a ton of talent. A ton of talent. And I remember the ongoing joke was, we’re going to have this come to Jesus or players-only meeting. And they had, like, eight in a season. So, nothing changed after those meetings.
So, I feel like they’ve got a little bit of that going on that maybe they think they’re better than they are and they don’t have to be at their best every night. But the simple fact is, they do. And yeah, that can change. You know, we’re having this conversation in mid-March. We could be having a different conversation where they’re elite eight in final four. But right now, um, I’m not so sure.
Julia: I agree. And kind of some of the situation that we’re also seeing with the Lady Vols. Same conversation. And this is something I equated it to which I find very interesting, I had this conversation with a couple of other people, this is the generation that we see the result of participation trophies. So, we’re seeing the most talented generation sports-wise I’ve ever seen—talent, abundant amount of talent—every kid that’s coming out of high school, going into college, maybe junior, senior year in college, all of them are so unbelievably talented. It’s almost like NFL quality.
At what—what is it? A point one-tenth of a run difference between you and the guy next to you? Talent. Real talent at such a young age, but you didn’t have that competitive aggression to go with it. This is the result of that raising of kids without that competitive, you have to be a—somebody has to win. Somebody’s got to have the attitude to want to win. That aggression has got to be there. Just don’t feel like very many teams, even UT, are aggressive right now. It’s gone.
Dave: I think that’s a societal issue as well. I mean, I was watching, I think it was a sociology professor talking about how, you know, if you are aggressive and if you work hard and you do things like follow-ups and stuff like that that we were talking about before the podcast, just simple little stuff that was just, you know, when I was younger, man, that was common knowledge, if you didn’t do that, you weren’t going to have the respect of your peers. If you do that, nowadays, just the basics, you’re probably going to slay in whatever field you go after because a lot of people aren’t. So, I think there’s some of that in sports, too. And I think that the Lady Vols have a little bit of that going on with their group.
But you know, that if you flip it to football, it’s the exact opposite. I mean, that team believeD from last January, that they were going to be special. And I got little hints from Cooper and Jacob and other players at press conferences that they were going to be better than expected. And I said, “Eh, yeah, whatever.” You know? There a seven-, eight-win team. And they turned out and they win eleven and beat Alabama.
So, those were guys that went out there and just absolutely slayed with their mindset, starting in January. Not in August in pre-season camp, but in last January. And if they’re doing the same this year, then the talent level should be better and we’ll see what will happen. But yeah, I mean, to the young kids out there watching or middle-aged people, whoever may be, if you just go out there and work hard and do what you’re supposed to do, you’re going to do well.
Julia: I agree. And we’re going to end it right there because that’s the perfect ending. Go do what you’re supposed to do, but do it with aggression and do it well. So, tell us and all of our fans here at Connect the Knox, how we can find you, how we can follow you, and all of your links.
Dave: Just go to offthehooksports.com is probably the easiest way, and all of our links are there. So, our niche is, we don’t charge any subscription fee, but we’re free. We’re advertising-based and I think that’s the way things are going in this market.
And I also would encourage people to check out the YouTube channel. You can subscribe there just so that you get notice of our latest videos. But that’s free as well. So yeah, and you can go to Twitter at @TheDaveHooker, or you can go to Twitter at OTH—which is Off The Hook—Sports Media @OTHSportsMedia. So, that’s where we are.
Julia: Awesome. Thank you so much for connecting the Knox with us today. Everybody, this was David Hooker, owner of Off The Hook Sports and he’s [moving back to Knoxville soon 00:29:01]. [unintelligible 00:29:03] lookout for him at your press conferences. Thank you so very much for visiting Connect the Knox.
Thank you for tuning into the show. Make sure to like and subscribe, leave a five-star review on your podcast player of choice. And if you would like information on moving to Knoxville, send me a private message. As always, this is Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation.
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