Keeping Tennessee Competitive with Its Peers with Marc Gibson

Julia: Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Connect the Knox. I’m your host, Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation. Today’s guest has one of the longest job titles I’ve ever seen in my life, which means he’s really, really important. We’ve got a lot to learn today and a very short time to learn it, so I want to introduce Mark Gibson, Associate Vice Chancellor, Research, Innovation and Economic Development for the University of Tennessee. And as we have learned over the last year, that’s really for all of Tennessee. Mark, thank you for being here with us today.

Marc: Thanks, Julia. I really appreciate you having me, and I’m super excited about being on today.

Julia: Well, we cannot wait to dive into what all of this means as we continue to grow into the East Tennessee market. And of course, Tennessee is always the forefront in leadership of economic development, of innovation. So, you have quite a responsibility to continue that journey as the University of Tennessee grows and Knoxville grows because of its growth. Tell us a little bit about what this entails, and what just a regular day for you is?

Marc: Yeah, good question. So, a regular day is, is—it’s not the same. So, there’s no cookie cutter approach to what we do. We work with private industry organizations, state and civic leadership across the state, building partnerships to forward the mission across the state. Really, our main mission is to make sure that the state of Tennessee remains competitive with our peer states.

So, we look at all the border states of Tennessee, we look at, you know, other states around, and especially in the southeast, and we want to make sure that we’re competing, and are putting the University of Tennessee at the forefront to make sure that we are innovative, that we are producing a viable workforce, and that our research and development certainly meets the needs of the nation. So, we work a lot with private industry, as you can probably imagine, building those partnerships from an R&D perspective, but also, we like to open the door a little bit, too, and help with workforce development needs. And sometimes that comes with curriculum development, right? So, we allow our partners to be engaged at an advisory level phase, and have them come onto our campus, tell us about ways that we can change our curriculum.

You know, one thing that our chancellor likes to say a lot is higher education across the nation has not changed in over 200-plus years, right? And that’s true, if you think about it. The curriculums at these four-year institutions have remained pretty stagnant for the last 200-plus years. And so, the university is really taking some steps to make sure that we are preparing our students for the workforce of the future, thinking about ways that we can develop the economies of the future. And that is all around innovation, it’s all around curriculum development with our workforce.

So, we work a lot across the state, as you can imagine, just to make sure that our economy is prepared for the next 20, 30, 40, 50, and plus years. So that’s, in a nutshell, some of the things that we do around economic development. But I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the things that we do around small business development and entrepreneurship as well because that’s something that also flows through my office. Super excited about the things that we’re starting right now, kind of bridging the gap, if you will, between the research side of things, and the business development side of things. There’s a lot of technical work that’s being done on university campuses.

The University of Tennessee is taking steps right now to really think about how we can catalyze some of that technology, some of that innovation, and building it into, you know, opportunities for those companies to actually build and stay in East Tennessee, which is so important, as you know, just thinking about the economies of the future and what that technical workforce means. So, high wages, as you can imagine, certainly a part of that, so we’re just always thinking about ways that we can work with our entrepreneurs. Our city officials are really, really, you know, engaged in that process as well. So, that’s just kind of a nutshell [laugh], but happy to go in more in-depth if we need to.

Julia: Okay. That’s so much responsibility in one office setting. I mean, genuinely, the state of Tennessee itself’s economic policy has been forward-thinking for quite some time. We sta—you know, we’re talking, you know, what, 30 years ago, they put to stop to state income tax, and they were like, “Listen, we want to be on the forefront of at least financial security, so we’re going to offer that.” So, whether it’s economic development in at least being able to attract retirees, attract money.

So, it’s like, okay, we want to attract that 30, 40 years ago. Like, let’s take care of this one thing. And then as we’ve continued to build, as a policymaker, and even with party changes, everybody in the state of Tennessee, no matter what, always comes together to do what’s best for the state of Tennessee. So, you get to work with all sides, all conversations. What are you seeing currently is going to be your biggest opportunity—which could also be your biggest challenge—but mixed together, what is your crystal ball, and it’s the perfect ending over the next decade plan could you see for not just the University of Tennessee—which again, Tennessee systems is the state of Tennessee—but for this area as a whole?

Marc: Yeah, you know, we’re working on some initiatives right now, Julia, that, I think, are really going to be transformative for the state. A couple of those, you know, with the CHIPS and Science Act right now, there’s a lot of… there’s a lot of funding that’s flowing out of Washington, DC, and, you know, I think that our state has really good opportunities to capture some of those opportunities, right? And we’re catalyzing, you know, all of our partners, and this is something that we’re really adamant about trying to develop these relationships. And this doesn’t happen in a lot of states, right, but the states that do it right are the ones that actually capture these awards. So, they’re working, you know, multiple universities come together and team together, right?

And, you know, five years ago—maybe ten years ago, but maybe even five years ago—the universities didn’t work with Vanderbilt, right? We didn’t work with the University of Memphis. We were competitors, on the field of play in our athletics programs, and that kind of spilled over into some of the academic stuff as well. And so, I think that’s really evolving, right? I think we see that we’ve got to come together, we’ve got to work together in order to be successful in capturing some of these big grants that are coming out of Washington.

The NSF and the EDA grants are transformative, right? And it’s not just about the funding that flows in, right? It’s not just about the universities working together, but how do we work together with industry, how do we bring state government together, how do we bring ECD into some of these conversations, and the Tennessee Department of Transportation, and other arms of government to actually think about what can be transformative for the state over the next 20 to 50 years? And right now, we’re really looking at five specific areas, and I’ll talk specifically about one or two of those, one being mobility, right?

So, if you think about mobility of the future, a lot of people think okay, well, we’ve got a lot of cars on the road, we’ve got a lot of things that are happening right now, right, but it’s more than just that, right? It’s the infrastructure in place, it’s the policy, it’s you know, it’s certainly the technology, it’s the workforce. You know, we’ve got four major OEMs that are in the state of Tennessee right now, and it’s not just about the OEMs, but it’s about the suppliers who are here, it’s about all the jobs that are being that are being created, so the workforce of the future has to be thought of there. So, all of this stuff.

And so, we have these big grant proposals that NSF Engines proposal could bring up to $160 million into the region. That seems like a lot of money, right, but we want to work with the state. How do we leverage that opportunity to match, from a state’s perspective, and then you really begin to think about impact in these regions, right? So, if we can work with the state, we bring that $160 million, we leverage it, and now you’re talking about 300 to $500 million worth of funding that can funnel into these communities across the state, really helps set us up for the future. And I think that’s one of the things that we really want to do. I’m actually sitting here today at an AI Tennessee Initiative workshop, right?

Julia: I love that.

Marc: Yes. So, we have to think about how AI plays into this, right? A lot of people are really worried about what AI is going to do in education and just overall society, but we’re here today at the university, with friends from universities across the state, and private industry to think about actually not about the scary parts of it, but how AI is going to help shape some of the workforce moving forward. And if you think about AI right now it is going to be—it’s going to transform, so we’ve got to think about how we embrace that and bridle the opportunities that are before us, and not sit back and let things pass us, right? Because that’s—I think that’s—if you do that as a state, that can be a really scary thing to try to catch up from.

Julia: So, with the current—because it is, it’s very—it is scary, okay. So, most people, you know, typical average American operates out of fear. It’s just how we are raised. It’s our instinct, fight or flight, a lot of people’s fl—flee. So, it’s at—we’re always in this fear mode. My generation is the last generation—it’s what I always say—my generation is the last generation of actual communication. I remember still having to pick up the phone with a rotary dial, I had a phone book, I knew how to work my phone book, I didn’t have a cell phone until well into college, and you could only dial after nine o’clock, or it was like $30 a minute. And we had AOL Instant Messenger. We never used our computers, we didn’t understand how to do it, our computer class was an Excel spreadsheet, like, learn Excel. It’s huge—which actually, it still is very usable—but that was our computer science class, you know?

And then about 30 minutes later, it felt like overnight, it was computer in your hand, instant communication, instant access to the internet, just constant information, don’t know what to do with it. And so, there’s this generational growth surge, that for the generation before me, they built all this infrastructure for these things and didn’t really know what they were building, they don’t really use it anymore. My generation got to see both sides: that human connection and the AI possibility. And this next generation is seeing a total, almost disconnection from human connectivity into full-blown use of a different kind of communication. Where can regular business people find a place to not only continue to build their businesses, which I’m sure the question you’re asking today, you know, and create a workforce for the future to understand and communicate with both? Because as somebody who’s just barely in their 40s, I’ve got another 40 years here, so I may not be living, breathing, doing it, but I have to adapt, while the next generation is living it. So, how do we bridge that gap between future business owner and future workforce?

Marc: Yeah, I think that’s a really good question, and I’d like to say that I have a really clear answer for you. You know, I think we’re in the same generation—I’m a little bit older—but I will say, you know, we’ve seen so much happen in our lifetimes, right? And it’s funny, I have a 14-year-old son. And just yesterday in the car, we were talking about phones, and for whatever reason, he said, “Oh, I remember using a rotary phone at a hotel,” right? And I was like, “You do?” And he said, “Yeah, I didn’t know how to figure it out.”

And that’s funny, right? As a 14-year-old, you think, gosh, he doesn’t even know how to use a rotary phone, but it goes to show you how different things are. And he was actually—we were having a conversation not long ago, and this is something that I think is really fascinating, right? So, when we think about how AI is going to impact the future and in the next generation, he was telling me that he has a teacher at his school—and he’s in the eighth grade—and his teacher is basically embracing AI, right? And he’s bringing home a project, and he said, “Look, my teacher wants me to use ChatGPT to answer this question and write a report.”

And I was like, “What?” Like, I was not happy about this, right? But the more that I thought about it, and I looked into the project, essentially what they’re going to have them do is type in the question—and they know that it’s going to happen, right? They know that these kids are going to do this right—type in the question, and have ChatGPT essentially write the paper for them.

Julia: Hmm.

Marc: And that seems, that seems kind of crazy, right? So, then what they’re going to have them do is they’re going to have them go back and fill the gaps, and they’re going to have to go back, and they’re going to have them fact-check it, and they’re going to have them go back and make sure that everything is correct, and then they’re going to have them rewrite the paper based on how ChatGPT wrote it. And I thought, you know, that’s really novel because you’re using ChatGPT in a different way, to form the foundation, but then you have to go back and actually do the research and fact-find to make sure that it’s correct, right? And I was like, okay, that makes sense to me. And when I think about how that translates into the future and all the jobs that are going to happen, right, you’re beginning to you’re forming the next generation of people just, like, you know, just like earlier generations that we have, our grandparents, right, when they were given a calculator, and everyone before them thought, “Oh, they’re never going to be able to do math again because now they’ve got this little calculator,” right? Or when we got a TI-81 and college or whatever.

Julia: Oh, I love that thing. Yeah, I loved that. I loved that. And you couldn’t use it in your finance class at the very end of the semester, and I was like, why is it here then? If I can’t use this for the formulas, why is this here? And as I’ve grown to understand why, it’s still a tool that you need to learn how to use properly, but you don’t need to rely on it, but you do need to know how to use it. And AI is a tool, and if we don’t teach this next generation how to use it properly, this next generation won’t have jobs.

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Marc: And going back to your earlier comment, too, I mean, we have to be able to think about how we are connecting the next generation to the workforce of the future. And AI, whether we want to believe it or not, or—it’s here, right? And we’ve got to be able to embrace that and figure out, you know, how to better leverage, you know, the technology to help us in the future. So, the next generation is going to be prepared for that. I think it’s going to be up to us to make sure that we—you know, there’s going to be policy, and I think all of our policymakers right now are trying to figure out all this stuff, and it’s all flowing in really quickly.

It’s like the internet, you know, back in the ’90s. It’s like, okay, how do we put policy around this, right? And I think we’re still trying to figure that out with social media. And I think that’s probably going to be the case 20 years from now. So, as long as we continue to innovate, and we’re, you know, we’re going to disrupt a lot of industry, we’re going to disrupt a lot of things, and we have to be prepared for that.

And I think that’s where the workforce has got to be agile and nimble enough to be able to pivot in some of those things. And that’s, you know, I’ll say this really quickly, but I was on a phone call with some of my colleagues from Ohio, and you know, if you think about the geography of where the state of Ohio is, there’s a lot of auto manufacturing, obviously, that takes place in Michigan to the north, and then a lot of auto manufacturing that takes place in the southern states to the south. And so, in the state of Ohio—and I forget what the number, but it’s a huge number—of suppliers that actually are building the combustion engine, right? So, if you think about over the next ten years, what’s going to happen to the combustion engine, and the in the manufacturing of combustion engines in automobiles with the growth and increase in electric vehicles, if Ohio is not taking steps now—or really, if they weren’t taking steps five years ago—they’re going to be they’re going to be hurting in terms of workforce because a lot of those companies, a lot of those manufacturers are going to have to figure out how to pivot, right? And so, how do we plan for that, and what’s that innovation that goes into that to make sure you’re planning for that next workforce of the future in the state of Ohio? Tennessee’s in a little bit of that, too, so we have to figure out some of that.

Julia: Yeah. Tennessee, we’re—Tennessee in and of itself—and I genuinely do not think—and I know this, I relocate people constantly. I mean, it’s just a constant influx of relocations, and they really have no idea how large Tennessee is. They can’t comprehend the size of it. It’s so long. It’s ten hours from Memphis to Mountain City—you’re looking at a 10, 11-hour drive—and people, in their mind, cannot comprehend.

Tennessee borders—or seven states border Tennessee, so that’s seven states of commuters coming in and out, using our roadways. We don’t have toll systems. We have to fund our infrastructure, we have to incorporate, but we’re also mostly our retirement state because of our ease-of-use to other areas and transportation opportunities. The University of Tennessee attracts some of the most youthful, educated, athletic entrepreneurs and students across the state. How can we build a future faster to keep them in the state of Tennessee so we don’t die out?

Marc: Yeah. You know, that’s a really good question. You know, I will say that, you know, there’s a couple of things, right? So, I think in, especially in East Tennessee, right, the University of Tennessee, we’re padded in a lot of ways, right? So, during the economic downturn that happened in 2008, 2009, we certainly saw the effects, but not some of the impact that some of the states across the country saw.

A lot of that is because of the innovation and the R&D that’s taking place, not just at the university, but Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and then certainly with TVA here as well. And then certainly, you know, I think it gets overlooked sometimes, but the Great Smoky Mountains, it’s a huge draw. Certainly the amount of tourism that comes into the state of Tennessee to visit with Pigeon Forge, and Gatlinburg, and the Great Smoky Mountains is a big economic driver, as you can imagine. Consider this. I had—I actually looked at this last week, I had to give a presentation last Friday, and I was looking—so the University of Tennessee is a large economic driver, close to $2 billion in economic impact across the state. It’s a big impact driver, as you can imagine. I was looking at Dollywood, okay—

Julia: Okay.

Marc: And Dollywood has a larger economic impact across the state of Tennessee than does the University of Tennessee, right? And that’s huge. So, when you first look at that you’re like, “Man, you know, the impact that Dolly Parton has is just amazing,” right? And I applaud, you know, everything that Dolly has been able to do. She stands for everything in East Tennessee that is good, right? But I also look at the average wages and those types of things.

And if you look at University of Tennessee, and you look at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, you look at TVA, and then you look at the health sector here. So, the health center in East Tennessee actually employs more—a greater workforce—than UT, ORNL, and TVA combined, right? So, we have to think about, a lot of times you think, okay, there’s the big three, but you have to think about the healthcare sector as well and the impact that that’s having across the state. It’s huge. And if you think about what I call the—and I don’t just call this—it’s the Tennessee Valley corridor, from Huntsville, Alabama, all the way up to, you know, through Knoxville, Oak Ridge, and all the way up into the Tri-Cities area.

That Tennessee Valley corridor, if you look at the concentration and the number of PhD and Master’s level, and college graduate students, it is a huge economic driver, right? So, you have to think about the industries of the future and the technologies that are driving the economic impact. And it’s huge, right? So, the university wants to make sure that we’re providing that workforce, the states are working to make sure that we’re bringing the right companies in, we’re all catalyzing to make sure that we’re supporting our startups, and making sure that it’s not just about the retirees, right? Because we want the retirees to come in and bring the funding and the investment, but we also need to make sure that we’re thinking about how we build the foundation for the future. So—

Julia: That is a balance. As—in my industry alone, we see so much change and turmoil all the time, and adapting to those changes, and then understanding the healthcare sector. So, we talked about—I’m in Loudoun County, the number one retiree county in the state of Tennessee. Like, more retirees come here with—we have more lakefront land than we could shake a stick at. We got so much lake, and people love it.

However, you go from the current retiring generation, moving here, driving the need for more nurses, more physicians, more hospitals, and then the next generation, which is us, and there’s half of us. So, in the next 20 years, half of the need will be gone.

Marc: Yeah.

Julia: How do we create an opportunity for that next 20 years, where we know that we’ll only need half of what we have for hospitals, half of what we need for retirement communities half of what we need for whatever, and still drive industry and technology and education forward. Personally, I am seeing a massive upswing in nuclear research, in the energy sector, things along that nature. It doesn’t even have to be electric; it can just be a type of energy. And I feel like that may be—and Tennessee, of course, number one in leading that, and the University of Tennessee as well, and preserving our farm life, so we have food, right? And so, the AG Center at UT is doing the research to make sure our farmers stay up to date, and there are farmland stays fresh and that our food stays in our state, and that provides the food for the next generation.

So, you all are in this, what—I—you’re in the perfect storm of making all the decisions for literally the next generation, and I’ve never, in my life, seen such a great group of leaders in place to do that. And, you know, the leadership that you all have been able to combine for this brain… gathering—I don’t even know what to call it—but you’re truly doing everything you possibly can. And every time I have an opportunity to take time for you all, which I appreciate, and just share that with a nation that other people can see: we’re here, we’re innovating, we’re not just a retiree state, we’re going to provide your family, your kids, with great jobs, great education. Get here while you can. We’re growing. And I really appreciate that effort because I can see it, and I know that people that are from here and have jobs and businesses here can feel that impact. So, what can we do to support you?

Marc: Boy, you know, I think just continuing to carry the flag, I think it’s so important, right? Advocacy is such a huge opportunity for us across the state, whether we’re working with private industry or we’re working with our state officials. You know, it’s—I couldn’t have said it—Julia, really and truly, I couldn’t have said it better myself, right? When we think about where we stand, you know, nuclear is such a big opportunity for us in the state of Tennessee, and Oak Ridge being located just right across—just right down the road from us, Y-12 National Security Complex is here as well, TVA, certainly, but it’s not just about that; it’s about the technologies that go into that. So, energy and environment.

You mentioned agriculture. Food insecurity is a real thing. And you know, I can drive 30 minutes outside of Knoxville, and I can see depressed communities that we need to be—you know, we need to be in, right? And as the state’s land grant institution, you know, with a mission of serving the people of the state of Tennessee, I know that we’ve got really good people working on making sure that we’re connecting, and the outreach into these communities is so, you know, so important.

You mentioned the Institute of Agriculture. We have an extension agent in all 95 counties across the state. And that’s huge. Having that connectivity into those communities is such a big deal, whether you’re talking about next generation, just you know, teaching how to farm, teaching how to manage your finances, you know, teaching—teach—those things, you can’t replicate that, right? I mean, that those things that literally have to be done in order for, you know, for our economies in these communities to be strong. So, but yeah, I totally agree. You mentioned energy and environment. That’s another one of our big research gateways, so AI—I already mentioned AI and mobility, but certainly energy and the environment [crosstalk 00:28:31].

Julia: And I think your new office tagline#fromAGtoAI—

Marc: Yeah, I love it.

Julia: —you know? I think that that’s your mission, and making these connections with these private industries, and ensuring that their ideas and thoughts are brought to the table is a big responsibility for you to take on every single day, and we appreciate that. And thanks for spending time with us today. I love to learn about anything that UT is doing. I find that the more you learn about what’s here locally, the better off you are to be able to contribute to the community at large, so that is huge. How can people find you, connect with you, get in front of, you know, whatever programs that you’re trying to do? What can people do to get in touch with you or contribute?

Cecilia@cecilicase.com

Marc: Yeah, so you can always send me an email. I’m always happy to respond back. My email address is mgibson—G-I-B-S-O-N—the number four—mgibson4@utk.edu. You can also get on our website, which is research.utk.edu. And we’re always looking to connect and learn how we can make life and lives better across the state of Tennessee. So yep, thank you for having me today.

Julia: Well, I want to say thank you so much for your time today. This is another episode of Connect the Knox. I’m your host, Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation. Thanks for visiting.

Julia: Thank you for tuning into the show. Make sure to like and subscribe, leave a five-star review on your podcast player of choice, and if you would like information on moving to Knoxville, send me a private message. As always, this is Julia Hurley, connecting Knoxville to the nation.